python asexual reproduction

[BillyVillain]

ok, so like 5 months ago i was talking to this guy about snakes and he says to me. " have you heard about the burm that produced viable eggs without being mated" naturally i said something along the lines of "ya, i like to sniff glue too" But then i went home and did a little research online to find that there may be some validity to what i was told. I found a few websites which all had the exact same brief article about it. this is what is written.
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++ Environmental News / Green News
First evidence for python asexual reproduction

Until now there has been anecdotal evidence only that sexual species have the ability to reproduce using parthenogenesis, a process where offspring are produced by an unfertilised female. However, a team from Amsterdam have published evidence that parthenogenesis has been exhibited by a Burmese python housed at Artis Zoo.

The female in question had been isolated from males since 1995 and produced eggs that contain embryos in five consecutive years. Parentship analyses enabled the team to confirm that the offspring were genetically identical to their mother.

---------------------------------

I asked kevin about this today and he didn't know what i was talking about . So i figured i would use this topic to try out the nerd forum. Does anybody have any info on this. Could this be proof of the emaculate conception of the long awaited serpent jesus(danzig reference) or is someone just spreading falsehoods online.

the link to the website is this:

http://www.getawaytoafrica.com/content/webletter/2003/apr02.asp

[Ian]

From what I understand, pathenogenesis has occured only in reptiles with deviant numbers of chromosomes... I did some searches and cannot find anything about true parthenogenisis in reptiles or snakes.
Here is what my boss, Breck Bartholomew has posted on another site regarding parthenogenesis:

I haven't looked at the Parthenogenetic discussion until now. I did check out the "article" about automictic parthenogenesis, but this is in a regional herp society newsletter and neither of the people involved (Chiszar or Schuett) wrote the article. In addition, neither of these people - both of whom regularly publish in the scientific literature, have published anything about these snakes. If Schuett really has DNA data it would be easy enough to publish this and very important. I also did a search for automictic parthenogenesis in several scientific databases and could not find any papers reporting this in vertebrates. That's not to say it isn't there, just that the literature seems to be missing. I'd really like to know the citations of the papers mentioned in this discussion.

Unfortunately I did not see the original question that started this discussion. However, it seems several people need to read up a bit on parthenogenesis. Automictic parthenogenesis is a different case, and could easily be mistaken by sperm storage - which is common in snakes. True Parthenogenesis in reptiles is always found in animals with deviant chromosome numbers (i.e., triploid). It is thought that parthenogenesis is a rare result of hybridization and is more likely to occur in some species (e.g., Cnemidophorus).

I would suggest you look for more plausible explanations for the results you are seeing. Parthenogenesis of any type is highly unlikely.

Breck

P.S. There are several very good books reviewing parthenogenesis in vertebrates and discussing the types of breeding systems involved. You'd probably have to get some of them via interlibrary loan though.
_________________
Breck Bartholomew
Bibliomania!
P.O. Box 58355
Salt Lake City, UT 84158
www.herplit.com



hi Shaun,

Sorry about the delay in replying. I have a zillion things going on. Anyway, I did another search for AP on Zoological Record and BIOSIS and have only managed to find reference to AP in a genus of fish which also contains several partehogenetic species. I have been unable to locate any reference to AP in an amniote. At least not in the peer reviewed literature.

In addition I emailed both David Chiszar and Gordy Schuett, both of whom I have known for years. So far neither has replied regarding AP.

You are correct that you don't have to have an odd ploidy to be a parthenogenetic species. But if you look at figure 15 in:

Dessauer, H. C. and Cole, C. J. 1989. Diversity between and within nominal forms of unisexual teiid lizards. pp. 49-71. In: R. M. Dawley and J. P. Bogert (eds.) Evolution and Ecology of Unisexual Vertebrates. Bulletin 466 of the New York State Museum. Albany, NY.

You will see that although not all partehogenetic Cnemidophorus species are triploid ALL have arisen from hybridization events. From what I have read hybridization has been found in all herpetological parthenogens. Of course there are different type of parthenogenetic reproduction (some require copulation with a related species; some require pseudocopulation; etc.).

Anyway, to date I have not been able to look up your biology text book to find out where the Turkey information actually came from. Do they cite the original source material? There has to be a source other than the text book.

You also mention references in Stebbins. Again that is not the original source material. Things often get mis-quoted and taken out of context. You should really try to find the original source and read it for your self.

I'll let you know if Chiszar or Schuett respond.

Best regards

Breck
_________________
Breck Bartholomew
Bibliomania!
P.O. Box 58355
Salt Lake City, UT 84158
www.herplit.com
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herpbooks
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Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Location: Salt Lake City, UT

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Shaun,

I just heard back from Gordy Schuett:

"Indeed, I published a paper in 1997 on AUTOMICTICc parthenogenesis in snakes. I believe you may have access to this publication via Louie Porras. Also, several other cases have since been reported in different species of snakes, such as Burmese Pythons. (Tom Groot’s work. A Google search will get you there.)


Schuett, GW, PJ Fernandez, WF Gergits, NJ Casna, D Chiszar, HM Smith, JR Mitton, SP Mackessey, AR Odum, and MJ Demlong. 1997. Production of offspring in the absence of males: evidence for facultative parthenogenesis in bisexual snakes. Herpetological Natural History 5:1-10"

I have a copy of the paper and will have to read it this weekend.

Let me know if you are unable to find a copy. I bet I have an extra one in my inventory.

Breck
_________________
Breck Bartholomew
Bibliomania!
P.O. Box 58355
Salt Lake City, UT 84158
www.herplit.com


Clear as mud, right?
It seems legit to me. Sperm storage, autotimic, or true parthenogenesis...I don't know! I would get in touch with Tom Groot for more information.

Ian

[BillyVillain]

a lot of that is over my head but i think i get the gist of it. i am familiar with sperm storage, but im going to have to read up on parthenogenesis. Im shocked to think that something untruthful could be written on this bastion of truth we call "the internet". Lies are not what the web is about. It's about punching monkeys to win an x-box, and trying to sell me some kind of.....male enhancement pills...whatever that means. thanks for clearing it up a bit for me.

[Lance]

I know Cindy and Al Baldogo had their big tiger, Pansy, throw a clutch without having any contact with a male at all since the previous breeding season(~1year)

I think Dale at www.tinygiants.com had a female retic that he bred with a tiger one year and then a normal the next year and the hatchlings came out with some tigers. I can't completey remember Dale's story, so I may be off on what the morph was and the outcome, but it was something like that.

[Ian]

Lance, if the female has been in contact with a male in the last 2 years or so, it most likeley sperm storage, not parthenogensis. Cool none the less though.

[Hacker79]

I know Cindy and Al Baldogo had their big tiger, Pansy, throw a clutch without having any contact with a male at all since the previous breeding season(~1year)

I think Dale at www.tinygiants.com had a female retic that he bred with a tiger one year and then a normal the next year and the hatchlings came out with some tigers. I can't completey remember Dale's story, so I may be off on what the morph was and the outcome, but it was something like that.

I remember that post too Lance. I'm pretty sure it was from sperm storage as well. I remember Cindy saying something about giving Pansy the year off and she laid eggs anyway. If it was Parthenogenesis all the babies would of been all one sex. Depending on what type of parthenogenesis it was the babies would have been all tigers like the mother, or if it was sporatic parthenogenesis I suppose the babies would be all normals and supers. On monster snakes I have a post about parthenogenesis and the Baldogos didn't mention anything about that clutch I don't believe. They did have a few clutches in which all the offspring were females, but it did not seem to be parthenogenesis.
There is a scientific article about this Burmese python out there somewhere. I'll try and post a link to it. It's interesting to read for sure.