Opinions on "Mystery Hets?"

[Kitt]

I noticed recently that a certain well-known breeder is selling a bunch of "mystery het" male retics for $200 each. Apparently these snakes are all normals that are heterozygous for one or more morphs, but the actual morph is not being disclosed to the buyer -- sort of like a "genetic lottery," I guess.

What do all y'all out in Reptile Internet Land think of this? Does anyone see anything wrong with it? or are you all even wondering why it could possibly be objectionable (LOL)? ;)

Very curious to hear y'all's opinions...

[JTrott]

I think male het anything is basically worthless, so who cares what he is het for. Nice way to market pets though.

Jason

[boidubrid]

Kitt hes also doing that with balls. i got the email from him. i think its dumb. i dont know. since your giving him $200 and you have no clue what your getting in exchange? thats a rip-off.

[bigcountry]

i wouldn't call a male het useless.

[B Ott]

i think its dumb. i dont know. since your giving him $200 and you have no clue what your getting in exchange? thats a rip-off.

As Jason mentioned, I think it is a perfectly fine way to market male het retics-essentially, as pets.

I would hardly call an adult/subadult normal male retic for $200 that looks nice a "rip-off". At worst, you're getting a het albino or genetic stripe, which are worth $150-$200. At best, you might be getting a het "amel/type II", which are worth a bit more than $200 I would say.

Besides, I don't think many people have the illusion that picking up a male het albino or stripe to breed is exactly the best investment or wisest breeding plan...

[JTrott]

i wouldn't call a male het useless.

Maybe useless is a harse term, but it takes you 3 years(minimum) to get a female retic to breeding size. Once that female is breeding size, which could take up to 5 years, you have to breed the dad back to the daughters, 2-3 max. Seems like a wast to me. That is possibly 10 years, just to see what het he is. In 10 years, I think I can afford just about any morph.

Just my opinion,
Jason

[boidubrid]

As Jason mentioned, I think it is a perfectly fine way to market male het retics-essentially, as pets.

I would hardly call an adult/subadult normal male retic for $200 that looks nice a "rip-off". At worst, you're getting a het albino or genetic stripe, which are worth $150-$200. At best, you might be getting a het "amel/type II", which are worth a bit more than $200 I would say.

Besides, I don't think many people have the illusion that picking up a male het albino or stripe to breed is exactly the best investment or wisest breeding plan...
yeah, but he (not mentioning names) knows what hes giving you. hes not going to give you anything worth over $200 anyway if hes gonna make money. i dont know i suppose this het. lotto is up to the person whos buying. i wouldnt do it.

[Kitt]

What bothers me about it is actually not any of the things mentioned (LOL) but the idea that these things are being put on the market without their genetics being disclosed. I mean, at this point everybody wants a morph, but what if, in the future, the "pure" bloodlines become more scarce? People might be upset if these "random" morphs pop up in clutches that they'd hoped would be normal, because the genetics of a given thing was undisclosed in the past. I know that's hard to think about and will probably never happen, but it just bothers me when I see people selling things without full disclosure of their genetics, be it hybrids or morphs. Maybe I'm just being silly... And that probably made no sense. Poo. :P

[David Bellis]

The problem, as we all know, is that female hets are in a far higher demand than males ever will be. Due to the large clutch sizes and large adult sizes of retics this leaves any larger breeder with an excessive amount of male hets. If retics didn't get so large, people would probably buy extra het males to back up their visuals like people do with balls. I think the way he's doing it is about the only way to do it.

In response to your post Kitt, he could just go and sell them as normals. But he's not doing that. He's letting you know that they are hets, even if he's not saying which ones. I do see your point, but I doubt anyone looking to breed 'normal' retics would be all too upset if half the clutch came out albino. ;)

I would venture to guess that there are some hets that are indeed worth more than $200. There are quite a few recessive morphs out there and most people buy female hets and visual males. That leaves you with a bunch of male hets and if they're not hot sellers what do you do with them?

His other option is to start selling the male hets far cheaper and essentially take a big dump on the market price of those animals and eventually that morph. I think given the circumstances it's not a bad way to go about things. For the people out there that just want one pet retic and arne't looking to spend a ton of money, why not buy one that's het or possibly double het for something?

[Kitt]

In response to your post Kitt, he could just go and sell them as normals. But he's not doing that. He's letting you know that they are hets, even if he's not saying which ones. I do see your point, but I doubt anyone looking to breed 'normal' retics would be all too upset if half the clutch came out albino.

I suppose you're right; I guess it just sorta bothers me when things aren't explicitly labelled as whatever it is that they are. I definitely think that this is better than these guys being sold as just plain normals, and I'm sure you're right that anyone buying them will either just want one as a pet (not a breeder), or would be pretty happy if some morphs popped up in the future.... AAah dunno. ;)

[bigcountry]

useless vpi male het albino x very useful vpi albino female:


http://holzking.net/gallery/albums/collection/breeding.jpg

[JetWrangler]

It would be after the fact I know. But if you bought one could you not run a blood test to find out the genetics behind the snake. Its all about how many and of what kind, chromosomes and what not. Would that not tell you what you have. Problem is you would have to buy it first. It does seem real sketchy, would he tell you would you had after you bought it?

[Hennek]

There's not a large enough market to develop a test like that and even if there were, it would cost several thousand dollars thus outweighing any benifits gained.

In regards to Kitt's comment on "pure bloodlines"...it is estimated that 1/1000 imported balls are het albino. The genes are already present in many wild caught animals. The only way I believe people can mess up bloodlines is through unchecked hybridization.

I have to agree with Brian here, the breeder in question isn't doing anything unethical so I don't see why many are getting upset.

[dberes]

I would only see a problem with this if they were selling hybrids. Mystery hybrids translates to lineage destruction for me. If morphs/color phases are already in the genes and we just need to bring them out, then I don't see where the problem is on something that occurs randomly in the species itself. Look at the cornsnake market, 99%+ of all normals sold are het for something. That also makes it fun when you breed two normals together... You have absolutely no idea what you're gonna get if the breeder didn't tell you. You also see it in the pricelist of cornsnake sellers.

Normals $20.00 (Our normals are usually heterozygous for one or more traits)

Just my 2 cents.

[Kitt]

In regards to Kitt's comment on "pure bloodlines"...it is estimated that 1/1000 imported balls are het albino. The genes are already present in many wild caught animals. The only way I believe people can mess up bloodlines is through unchecked hybridization.

Huh, I actually did not know that. Well, I dunno. I agree about the hybridization. I'm not against hybrids at all but I do cringe when I see them being represented as "pure," or at least not specifically labelled as hybrids..

I guess the ad (which has been a moot point for awhile... LOL) just struck a "wrong" chord in me as I guess I just always prefer it when the full background of the snake is disclosed. I know that he wasn't doing anything at all "unethical," just... Struck me the wrong way somehow. I dunno.

I guess I shut my mouf.... :)