What type of dwarf retic morph>>>>>>>

[gmherps]

do you see (or super dwarf) making the biggest impact to the herp trade?
I'm not a "BIG" snake guy besides boas and balls, but I would like to get into dwarf or the smaller retics.

Thanks a lot,
Greg :smt006

[Andy]

I dont think all that many of them will. I think the dwarfs are going to loose there appeal to alot of people. Retics are just plain and simply meant to be BIG

[JonT]

Andy-
How big do those dwarf tigers get? I could keep them in a sweater box right? :smt005 :smt005

[JasonBrennan]

I think the super dwarf retics will be popular when they have been crossed into the other retic morphs and bred back down. It seems that the giants are not very appealing to many people right now. (Ball python fever has taken hold).

So, I think the smaller versions will become more popular. JMO

[gmherps]

Thanks

[David Bellis]

Andy is Mr. Anti-dwarf guy so you may not get an unbiased response from him. ;)

I love 'normal' retics. They're amazing animals to keep and there's just something majestic about animals of that size. The problem is they're just not for everyone. I had quite a collection of retics going and the bills for food and cage supplies just started to kill me. I was house poor at the time and just couldn't handle the food bills and lack of space in my new home. I sold all my retics and started working with some dwarfs.

Retics are by far my favorite snake. I love them for their appearance and their personality. Their size isn't much of an issue for me, for some people it is. Owning a 20 foot snake is part of the enjoyment for some. I've got retics that are 10 months of age and are in my ball python rack. They're 1/4 the size of my female balls. It allows me to work with an animal I love and keep it reasonable as far as space and feeding bills.

In the future, when I purchase another house with some more room, I'm sure I'll acquire some normal sized tics again. I think there's a market for all sizes and color variants. People that don't have the room for a massive cage can now have a retic. People that don't have access to pig and goat feeders can own a retic. Maybe that's why some dislike the idea of dwarf retics. Keeping something others are unwilling/unable to appeals to some people. I don't really know. I've never met a retic I didn't like. :D

I'm hoping to start working on some crosses in the next few years as well. I think there will be a decent market for these animals for years to come.

[gmherps]

Thanks a lot David.
I would like to see about getting into the albino dwarf retics. They're too cheap from what I've seen on KS.

[Outback Bill]

But Andy not all of us are giant lumberjack types that laugh in the face of danger. :smt018 .

[Andy]

And thats why there all ball pythons and cornsnakes Billy :D

[retic lover 14]

I dont think all that many of them will. I think the dwarfs are going to loose there appeal to alot of people. Retics are just plain and simply meant to be BIG


Couldnt have said it any better.

[voodooekis]

i personally think people are going to realize that once dwarfs are breed for afew years that they will get bigger and bigger, they stay small becuase they live on a smaller island with less food and space then mainland retics so givin ample food and space they will get larger

[Detoured4now]

I think dwarf retics will open up a whole new audience to mainland retics. If I can keep a 7 foot long adult female "super dwarf" and realize, "Hey a seven foot snake isn't that large." I'll gain the knowledge and confidence to go up to a 12 footer... and so on. I think that Designer Dwarf Retics will benefit a lot of folks in the Python world. We will always need to keepers to buy from the breeders.

Chad S

[PadraigC]

yea but not to beat a dead horse but, half of the retics lure is their size if you want a small albino just spring for the ball pythons. And in my experience dwarfs in no way shape or form ready you for the big boys infact I think they would make you a little sloppy in technique my .02 and biased at that considering I held my nose and jumped right into the big guys :lol:

[snakeman55]

i personally think people are going to realize that once dwarfs are breed for afew years that they will get bigger and bigger, they stay small becuase they live on a smaller island with less food and space then mainland retics so givin ample food and space they will get larger


That's really not how evolution works. The species may be small because of limited island resources, but it happened over a LONG period of time and is now part of their genetic makeup. You can't just feed them and give them lots of space and undo the thousands of years of evolution that is in their genetic makeup.

Giraffes have evolved long necks to reach very high vegetation. They don't shrink back to normal at the zoo if you start putting their food on the ground!

[voodooekis]

it will take some time but not as long as you think

[snakeman55]

it will take some time but not as long as you think


How do you figure? There is no evolutionary pressure for them to become larger. Animals don't change size for no reason. Dwarf retics aren't going to get big just because they have access to more resources.

[David Bellis]

And in my experience dwarfs in no way shape or form ready you for the big boys infact I think they would make you a little sloppy in technique my .02 and biased at that considering I held my nose and jumped right into the big guys

If you "held your nose and jumped right in to the big guy" then how would you have any idea that dwarfs would not give you experiecne toward handleing a larger retic? Since I've worked with both I can honestly say that all the dwarfs I've worked with have a more intense feeding response and are way more active than the normals. My normal that I raised from a hatchling was about as inactive as a snake gets.


it will take some time but not as long as you think

Since you obviously know more than two people keeping the Superdwarfs, please enlighten us with how long it will take. I'm sure you've done tons of research and hands on experimentation with feeding schedules and can provide plenty of data to backup your claims.

[Jim]

Since I've worked with both I can honestly say that all the dwarfs I've worked with have a more intense feeding response and are way more active than the normals.

My somewhat limited experience supports this statement, David. My two female Jampeas are very aggressive at feeding time (and one of them will hit anything anytime - food, hand, hook, spray bottle - if it comes within range :neworngb: ). My 1.0 dwarf tiger is very similar, showing a voracious apetite, and the biggest feeding response of all my snakes. He hits like a sledge hammer (okay, a small sledgehammer), and he is the hardest to "turn off" when I need to get in his cage or take him out.

My normal, while not 'dog tame', is a bit more sedate, and quite easy to work with. Eats like rabbits are going out of style, but at least he lets the food hit the bottom of the cage before he starts to eat. He likes to investigate his food before he eats. I don't think a rat has ever made it more than halfway into one of the dwarf cages before being removed from my tongs!

[1staburmthenaconda]

Haha...suprisingly, giraffes DO NOT have long necks to feed on higher vegetation...In fact, they most often feed at only 40-60% of their height...And female giraffes' necks are not nearly as long...Male giraffes actually have developed increasingly longer necks (and thicker skulls) over time through sexual selection because males compete for females by swinging their heads and clubbing each other (and also stretching their heads under an opponents feet and tripping them over!... :shocked: ...Very interesting, huh?...
...But you're still right that evolution takes time...However, that's often only because NATURAL changes are very gradual and therefore correspond to gradual evolution...But when humans come in and cause changes in an unnaturally fast manner, once gradual evolution can be greatly accelerated...
...Even so, I don't believe that the reason dwarf retics will become larger is because they get more food--instead, it will be for the same reason that large retics become smaller in time...I believe (scratch that, I am sure) that something along these lines WILL occur rather quickly however...Because, in the same way that the interbreeding of once geographically isolated black and white humans will in time lead all humans closer to a uniform mulatto skin tone; the interbreeding of dwarf and regular size retics (possibly even unknowingly) will continue to occur by human intervention in the breeding of what were once geographically isolated strains of retics leading to the future prominance of a mid-sized retic and fewer either very large or very small retics!... 8) ...
...And of all this, I guarantee I am correct...And it turns out to be a question that requires no actual experience based knowledge in regards to retic ownership; rather it is evident through the laws of evolution, which I spend way too much time immersed in... :wink: ...

[snakeman55]

What was described before was dwarfs growing large because of being exposed to more resources, which is preposterous. What your describing is called artificial selection, and of course is possible. If people start interbreeding dwarfs and mainlands than obviously the result will be snakes in the middle, but I don't see a lot of people doing this. People are doing it to some extent to dwarf down some of the morphs, but they are then bred back to dwarfs to keep them small. Why would someone pay $650-$1000 for a retic specifically because it's small only to breed it to a $75 snake that's going to get huge?

But no it doesn't take an evolutionary biologist to know that breeding a dwarf to a mainland will make medium sized snakes. I simply disagree with you about the way it's going to happen.

And I think you know that I was just making my point through analogy with the giraffe comment, but you can't tell me that the length of a giraffes neck doesn't have at least something to do with feeding on heightened vegetation, just because they don't use every inch of their height every time they feed. Another benefit of their height is to see predators earlier. If a trait like more height for a male or a thicker skull makes a specimen more likely to reproduce and helps them survive (not hurts their chances) than it's natural selection not sexual selection. It is only sexual selection if the trait makes it harder to survive, yet helps attract mates like with a peacock. Sexual selection is basically saying, "I'm so strong and tough that I can survive even with this huge decorative tail that is hard to carry around" The peacock's tail is a detriment, yet it needs it to attract mates. I don't believe that a male giraffes extra height is a detriment (but if I'm missing something and it is, than yes it is sexual selection). It's a common mistake to call something sexual selection just because it has something to do with male combat or mate attraction. But really all evolution boils down to sex, will it or won't it be successful in passing it's genes to the next generation. That doesn;t necc mean it's sexual selection rather than natural selection. Something has to be a detriment to survival, in every way except mate attraction to be sexual selection.

Anyway, this is getting way off topic. The point is that you can't just undo thousands of years of evolution through offering more resources and more space. You could increase the size of dwarfs through selective breeding, but why would you? If you want a medium sized retic just get a male mainland or a female Jampea.

[snakeman55]

If you "held your nose and jumped right in to the big guy" then how would you have any idea that dwarfs would not give you experiecne toward handleing a larger retic? Since I've worked with both I can honestly say that all the dwarfs I've worked with have a more intense feeding response and are way more active than the normals. My normal that I raised from a hatchling was about as inactive as a snake gets.

I agree David. We have a 1.1 Jampeas and 1.2 Super Dwarfs and all 5 would kick your ass up one side and down the other, while some of our huge mainlands are complete puppy dogs. You need just as much skill to handle the dwarfs, there is just much more potential for danger with the big guys. And our Jamp female is pushing 14 feet long and eats big rabbits. She is bigger and harder to handle than our 2 year old albino male mainland.

I completely appreciate people that love the big guys and don't really have interest in the dwarfs, but dwarfs are ideal for many. I just don't like it when people talk about dwarfs like they were manmade, like a teacup poodle. If you don't like dwarfs, your argument isn't with dwarf keepers, it's with God. Dwarfs obviously fill a niche because they exist successfully in the wild. So Retics were meant to be big and small apparently :neworngb: Something for everyone. But I wouldn't give up my giants for the world. David said it best. I never met a Retic I didn't like.

[Jim]

And of all this, I guarantee I am correct...And it turns out to be a question that requires no actual experience based knowledge in regards to retic ownership; rather it is evident through the laws of evolution, which I spend way too much time immersed in...

So just out of curiosity: since you are so knowledgeable of the laws of evolution and so certain of its course, approximately how many generations will it take for true dwarfs, bred to other true dwarfs, to become as large as the mainland retics (which, according to you, are getting smaller)? Or are you maintaining that there are no 'true' strains, and that the gene pool is so completely contaminated that one can not think of them as truly dwarf and or mainland at all?

Mastiffs are getting bigger...chihuahas are getting smaller...what is happening to this world??? :D ;) :DD

[1staburmthenaconda]

the later...the 2nd law of thermodynamics is a decent analogy...it is almost impossible for genetic strains to become more pure, regardless of the intent of prolific, successful, and knowledgeable retic breeders...Dwarf lines and regular lines will only become more mixed w/ time...I say this, not because I think breeders don't try to keep the lines seperate most of the time (because they do, and that is good in my not so powerful opinion), but because left totally to nature, there is NO interbreeding between large mainland populations and small island populations (except on a time scale where continents shift)...
...I have NO CLUE the literal number of generations it will take...Maybe 75 years, maybe 500 to a 1000 years (of course this all only applies to breeding in captivity and if it takes a long time, it depends on captive retic breeder continuing to occur for that long, and on that note, that life on earth persists that long...another thing is that continued input of genes from newly wildcaught retic will continually slow down the process) and on a evolutionary time scale that's essentially a millisecond...

[1staburmthenaconda]

Also, I never said that dwarves would become as large as mainlands...I believe that (considering only those in captivity) the larger will get smaller and the smaller will get larger till there is much less difference between extremes and a middle size will dominate...

[1staburmthenaconda]

If you don't like dwarfs, your argument isn't with dwarf keepers, it's with God. Dwarfs obviously fill a niche because they exist successfully in the wild. So Retics were meant to be big and small apparently Something for everyone. But I wouldn't give up my giants for the world. David said it best. I never met a Retic I didn't like.

this is a wonderful comment...I think it says soo much and is quite true...But we do have the power to manipulate "god's" work, the work of evolution, and it is inevitable that we will...To me this is good for scientific knowledge, yet bad in the overall scheme of species diversity...Personally, I'm a huge fan and advocate for selective breeding in captivity for recreational purposes, but If we really wanted to do the best thing for the worldwide population of retics we would never interbreed subpopulations, in order to retain natural species diversity (unless one subspecies was about to go extinct and it was the only way to keep them existant--yet, in another sense, it is more natural to let a weak population die than manipulate evolution...again, that's from a natural perspective; in reality, I support selective breeding in captivity...) ... :) ...

[Jim]

Also, I never said that dwarves would become as large as mainlands...I believe that (considering only those in captivity) the larger will get smaller and the smaller will get larger till there is much less difference between extremes and a middle size will dominate...


Oh well, so much for selective breeding in captivity. :BangHead:

[1staburmthenaconda]

Your apparent feelings about the value of selective breeding are shared by many, I'm sure, and I am one of them...However, one generation of breeding a dwarf to a large retic has a larger impact than may be expected (as far as reverting back to the original small and large)... I simply do not think we have a much control over the actual genetic proccesses and consequences that occur by selective breeding...Instead, understandably, we see it at surface value, as only the actual size of snakes and not the alteration of their genes...

[Detoured4now]

The other thing to remember is that the vast majority of dwarf Retics in captivity right now are wild caught... so they will be more aggressive feeders, on average, than a captive bred Mainland Retic. I am by no means a Retic expert, but many, many evolutionary and biological facts and theories still hold true accross species.

If

And please don't mistake my statements for arguments, I am just expressing my opinions based on the facts that I have been presented with. I truly welcome everyone to do the same!

Here's to more great discussion.

Chad S

[David Bellis]

I believe that (considering only those in captivity) the larger will get smaller and the smaller will get larger till there is much less difference between extremes and a middle size will dominate...


To me this is like saying that eventually all dogs will be one breed. All things will eventually interbreed and there will be one goat-fish-human-elephant being. Ok maybe so, but not in anyones lifetime that's reading this.

There are locale lines of retics just like their are lines of albino and tiger. Just like dogs, there are people out there that have favorites. And just like dogs, some breeders will crossbreed and some will be kept 'pure'. I have CB 04 Superdwarf animals and more 05s on the way. I'll be producing pure Superdwarf animals from unrelated parents in a few years. I'll also use the male to breed to other retic morphs and create smaller versions. There's a niche for every morph, locale and size specific retic that you can think of. For every guy that's breeding dwarfs to morphs to create mixed dwarf/normal morphs, there's another guy that's a locale freak and will produce only pure animals from that locale.

It hasn't happened with dogs in thousands of years of keeping and breeding them, why is everyone so sure that it's going to happen with retics?

[snakeman55]

Right on David. Well said with the dog analogy.

And by the way, it's pretty foolish to think that anyone could definitively predict how a species will evolve. Animals evolve based on evolutionary pressures, and we have no idea what those pressures may be. What happens in captivity doesn't really qualify as evolution anyway.

[PadraigC]

I want to answer David's critique of what I said. Listen i worked with both infact and quite frankly its my opinion that, dwarfs arent that similar to there bigger cousins. Its a biased opinion of sorts because i first started working with silvers and then suls. I then had some jamps.

Secondly,........ I think that this taxonomy bs about dwarfs needs to be cleared up. Everyone has an opinion. Ithink it is plausible as sated earlier that theyre may have been some intergrades brought in. To add to this that most importers are sketchy on where the animals were collected.


If this does or does not straighten anything out please by all means call me on it.

[David Bellis]

I would agree that they aren't similar. I've been tagged by a couple dwarf animals and never once by a normal. I think it is good evidence of diversity in genes that the smaller animals seem to be more food aggressive. This to me implies a living situation where food is more scarce and only the strong will survive. :)

They're both retics. They move the same, they feed the same. It's just a smaller version of the same animal (with a little crazier feeding response). How that wouldn't be training for a larger retic I have no idea. I worked with normals and Jampeas as well. What about them was so different to you?

As far as the WC dwarfs being brought in, of course no one *knows* their locale but the collector. The exporter will tell you an island and usually that's how they'll be sold. I'm sure you also have sellers that will label an animal as something it is not in order to sell it. What do you mean integrades brought in? You think the collectors in Indonesia are breeding dwarfs from different islands together and then exporting th babies? I highly doubt this so maybe this isn't what you meant. Please explain.

What does all of this have to do with anything? As no one has gone to do studies on the wild populations (to my knowledge) it's highly doubtful that there will be any definitive answers as to any of their origins. I'll label animals by what their appearance and size is commonly known to be. I'm glad to give background information to the lineage of my animals. If we're talking about guys mislabeling snakes and selling them as something they're not....welcome to the world of reptiles. :biggrin: :D :biggrin:

[voodooekis]

things that happen in captivity would be the same things happening in the wild, snakes evovled venom glands and ducts because prey was scare and certain snakes would be vornerable to attack so they have to develop an alternative method to kill prey take that away and in time things will change, something being insular will probably return to the normal in time, look at the dwarf burms and dwarf ophiophagus they all come from islands. and since they evovled one way what is to stop them from re-writing evolution and returning the other way

[snakeman55]

things that happen in captivity would be the same things happening in the wild, snakes evovled venom glands and ducts because prey was scare and certain snakes would be vornerable to attack so they have to develop an alternative method to kill prey take that away and in time things will change, something being insular will probably return to the normal in time, look at the dwarf burms and dwarf ophiophagus they all come from islands. and since they evovled one way what is to stop them from re-writing evolution and returning the other way

Things don't 'evolve' in captivity. Evolution doesn't happen to a specimen, it happens to a population of specimens. Captive collections are too isolated from each other for one, and two unless your a bad herper, their needs are being met successfully already. Animals that successfully meet their needs don't change. Mother Nature is the original, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Sharks and crocs have gone millenia without changing one ioda because they don't need to. Captive animals simply don't experience any evolutionary pressure, and the one's that aren't having their needs met, probably don't get to pass on their genes.

Oh and 1staburmthanacnda: I hope you don't think I was attacking you or we were ganging up on you. Your arguments seem well though out, I just don't agree with all of them. Anyway, i appreciate the fact that you are studying evolutionary analysis, and I appreciate the discussion/debate, it's obviously one of my favorite subjects. If it had been more lucrative It would still be part of my career.

[1staburmthenaconda]

Haha...Thanks for the side note Snakeman...I have enjoyed this little debate too, and I can understand and actually expected to play the devil's advocate in this one...Mainly because I know most of you guys and gals around here breeding retics put a lot of thought into your selective breeding projects, and as was mentioned earlier (probably) for every breeder that crosses locals for pattern or size manipulation, there's another that is a diehard locality purebreeder...Another important thing to note though that was also brought up earlier is that collectors and distributors really can and do label their wildcaughts however they please for their own benefit (unless you have amazing overseas connections) and only the best educated of the retic breeders can honestly ID every retic they come across!...
...I have some very relevant thoughts about the dog analogy brought up earlier, which is a pretty darn good arguement but does have some serious flaws...I don't have time to elaborate at the moment though...So, the debate will have to continue later... :norngbiggrin: ...

[1staburmthenaconda]

I also have some VERY interesting knowledge about venom in snakes that is unknown to and nearly unbelievable to most people...Again, I'll elaborate later...It's a genetic concept that is actually a little scary to think about!... :newpinkb: ...

[Detoured4now]

David,

Your last statement carefully and completely captures my opinion on the "value" of Dwarfs in the Retic world. Thanks!

Diversity is key and it gives us the 16 color box of crayons to work with instead of charcoal on paper.

Chad

[voodooekis]

i didnt feel pressured in any way and i enjoy a good arguement, just ask anyone who knows me lol, but i do not own any retics becuase i have no space for them but i love them as a species

[batty]

id like to see a leucistic or pure white dwarf retic

[voodooekis]

i also have some scary information of venom of colubrids and some of the misconceptions

[Biscuit71]

Personally for myself, I would love to get a retic, but i have read somewhere (not sure where) that even thought someone sells it as dwarf, it may not be one? Is that true.. I dont have a problem with large snakes, but dont have the space yet to add one to my collection, but I LOVE the look of the retic... they are absolutely gorgeous snakes.... I esp love the Yellow heads... are there any Dwarf Yellowheads out there anywhere?

[snakeman55]

It's just like buying hets and poss hets...buy from someone reputable. I wouldn't just take someones word that a snake is dwarf that I didn't know, but the dwarf patterns are pretty distinctive, so that helps.