Something Ive heard for around 2 years now

[PadraigC]

Ive talked to some locals around a favorite fishing spot in Chesire County Nh in specific the Monadnock Region. In particular some of my favorite spots from peterborough to keene to jaffery Ive met more then a couple anglers who swear up and down that theyve seen Timbers.... Now I know anyone can confuse them with that gigantic water snake that they say and just new was venemous(sarcasim) So, I took my Audobon Herp Guide and some pics from the net and threw together a lineup...of six snakes two water snakes the common that frequents around these parts northern and I think a gul coast just to throw things off. The next two snakes were a EDB really detailed with the jet black and a vivid pattern and so on and a Mojave the next two were really pics of Timbers. Ive shown this to about oh maybe 8-10 people and Ive only have had some people point to a timber correctly and say Ive seen them the two who said they have seen them were old 50+ I guess and one guy still claims he still sees them off and on. While me myself I had the privellege mixed one at that to attend a school in NH before i left and anytime I looked it was the same result nothing............... However I'm an opptomist to the fullest and still believe that their are pockets out there.

[EvilMorphgod]

I have a huge interest with any NH stuff...... if you find out naything PLEASE let me know...I am trying to protect the last populations. At this point there is a single (small) pup. left in NH. In the 60's there were supposedly 65+ populations. They wiped them out...I am trying to find if any remain...I know they do but finding them before they are gone is TOUGH. I have been to two populations that were just wiped out before I found them....that kills me!!!

It is HUGE news if there are any left in NH!!!

They are here and 2005 will be my year to find them in NH!!

It is important to locate the areas..and look at topo maps to locate a possible den area. How did the people happen to see them..what was the situation..this way it helps discern if they were actually a possible rattle snake. I got a good one from all places MAINE!!!! The people wee dead on and they knew snakes...now I cn not wait til spring!!!

Kev

[PadraigC]

I find that hunters are great potential witnesses myself. I had once this spring point out a ridge that he was out on when he swore up and down that he saw a timber. The best part was he was an oldtimer around when they were more prevelant. I was out on that ridge a total of about 14 total hours and perfect site for a den and by some more surveying a healthy food population but, no timbers........... I will definetly pass anything i find out on to you.

By the way have you found any Copperhead pops. I had a lead(of sorts) of one in MA Eastern MA at that in a heavily developed area to boot. However I never got a chance to look into it. Any, still in NH?

[EvilMorphgod]

No copperheads in NH...as in NEVER on record!! i don't see why they would not be her...but I am stupid!


Ok..the Ridge you were told of...what time of the year???

Hunters are great and just because you did not see one means NOTHING!!

Look for bits of shed..that is a big time give away...you have to look in the rock crevices for bits...rodents and birds get most of them...look for a cliff face and a talus slide under it...they like basketball sized rocks best.......look for areas at the top open with lots of sun for basking.... lots of habitat helps too!!! South western seems the best area and south...but they can be on south eastern exposers..

What time of the year and where did you look? WHat was the elevation called? I need info to help you validate if it is plausable...detail MATTERS~!!!!! What state??

Copperheads in Mass....Mount Tom...down behind the amusement park(old abandoned).... & blue hills(Mass- Canton) reservation on rattlesnake hill..both places have them...if you go I can give you more info..just take pics and appreciate them before they are gone!!!

Kev

[PadraigC]

The time of year I went to that ridge was around May in Chesire County. Bits of shed are a key I look fir all the time ....nothing . However, When Ive compared den shots of places in NY and this area man does it look great. Bout 4 miles in as well.

Copperheads, many guides ive seen list the northern most range as s.newhampshire???

I am aware of the spots in MA and yes they should be appreciated before thyre gone because the rate of development in that area is astounding to say the least.

The copperhead lead I got was in Northern MA in Essex County in a developed area to say. There is a lot of farm land mostly horse farms with an abundance of pasture but, also a couple stone bridges that when I was in NJ found to be a great spot for Copper's. Just cant wait till spring!!!


P.S. allow me to do some back-tracking for info regarding this ridge. I hadn't viewed a topo map prior to looking around.

[EvilMorphgod]

Cheshire county? I have no idea where that is..what state even?

[PadraigC]

New Hampshire the western most county next to Hillsborough

[captainmorgan]

I'd love to go herping with you guys this summer for some timbers. I agree, they gotta be here. I'm in Manchester and I have a great area for them to be. Just can't find them. I mean, rocks, crevices, water, streams, pines, ponds, and even man. I figure with all the construction going on around the area if there are any, they must be isolated. But, I will start taking more trips into the southern NH/Mass border....If I find any I'll let them be and let you know where I spotted them. Good luck and thanks for trying to save them!!!!

[EvilMorphgod]

Cheshire county is still vague..as in town..name of elevation...blahhh ..

There are still some wood turtles in manchester NH.....they are going...Development is taking them out!!!!!!!

kev

[PadraigC]

towns and the such I really prefer to keep on the dl for discrete reasons. Jaffrey area more or less although the site itself dont know officially it is. Elevation Ive been digging around some topo maps online havent found anything for a solid guess(im not going to bs) When Im back there in May Ill have it nailed this whole area seems prime to me.

[EvilMorphgod]

Goto Topozone.com

That site helps a lot when researching an area...there are many good places but they have often been wiped out in earlier times!!

There are massive areas where they once were and we came along and gassed them..it is amazing how effective we can be.

Fish and wildlife used to gas them, pour concrete down their dens and they even had a bounty..

These are the same people that now protect them?

Anyone seen the episode of the Chappel show where the numbert one KKK guy was a blind black man???

Kev

[PadraigC]

Fish and wildlife used to gas them, pour concrete down their dens and they even had a bounty..

These are the same people that now protect them?


Ya Irony at its fullest, dont even get me started on state wildlife agencies and their horrible record with herps both captive and wild

Kev, when were these practices in use last? 1960's?

[EvilMorphgod]

Up into the 70's thee were still some bounties!!!!


Grr........

Rattlesnake Island was LOADED and they gassed them all!!!!!

kev

[Robilyn]

It's awful how misunderstood rattlers are in the states...when i was younger we lived in Oklahoma, and my parents took us to a rattlesnake roundup... it was the single most awful event i have ever attended. i can't believe they're still legal. i'm a wildlife/zoology major and its great to hear about active conservation!

[Morti]

Kevin, YOU ARE MY HERO!

Thank you so much for sharing that link...

I have a bead on a possible location for Kentucky Pine Snakes... The isolated cave region population. I've good a pretty viable sighting and I'd love to get out there and confirm it.

The guy who told me about seeing it was able to point out the exact spot on this topo map of where he was when he found it. I am freaking giddy right now.

YAY!
-Morti.

[captainmorgan]

I'VE SEEN THAT CHAPELLE SHOW!!! FUNNY AS HELL!!

And no, I don't blame you for being discreet on town names where you have seen them. I would too...lol. My only offer is if you ever try a new area, and want a tag a long...let me know....nother set of eyes never hurt...I have no desire to keep a rattlesnake....just see them recover.

[PadraigC]

i think I sould offer a reason for being discret about names atleast for me. It seems that some local authorites (no names to be named) seem to corelate hey, if you keep herps and you interested in timbers that can only mean one thing your out to catch them to keep them so that must be probable cause for a search. Its a very obtuse thing here. These people cant seem to fathom that people are interested in helping this species not further desimate the number(ironically of which kev said they had a heavy hand in)

[EvilMorphgod]

I am pushing hard with NH Fish & Wildlife.....the Timber thing!

I am the only person in the state that is allowed to keep Timbers legally, this is quite something considering the way it goes in this state. The key person in control of law enforcement realizes my knowledge and basically uses us as a resource. I am happy with this relationship and only want to push things as far as we can to get something rolling with saving and finding the last TImbers in NH.

Cheshire county...peterborogh, fitzwilliams, troy.....little mount monadnock area....I hear things out there but it is just words!!!

I don't want to take a passive approach waiting for the researchers and state biologist to discover and create a plan to save the last populations. I have little...No I have zero faith in this method. We have one area where things are stable for the time being....I am looking for the next area that we know nothing about, that is my #1 priority. Once I have the info I can try to force the situation if the conditions allow!!

Now I just sit a nd stare at snow..waiting!!!

A good place to go look is topozone.com

Look up your areas and LOOK for possible dens....

Kev

[Kitt]

Hey, I'm in Cheshire county . . .

I've never seen a rattler but I'll certainly let you know if I do! After hearing about NERD's rattler search I've been eagerly awaiting spring to go herping around our area . . . I'm actually sort of wondering if the spot you're talking about is in our backyard -- it's certainly crammed with all kinds of other wildlife, and if there are any rattlers left in NH, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find them there.

I'll just have to remember to bring a camera whenever I go trekking in the woods. ;)

[captainmorgan]

I know a great place for them to thrive in. only bad thing is humans...it's a protected area, but humans hike and are moving in. just to bad....

[EvilMorphgod]

Ive seen them the two who said they have seen them were old 50+ I guess and one guy still claims he still sees them off and on. While me myself I had the privellege mixed one at that to attend a school in NH before i left and anytime I looked it was the same result nothing............... However I'm an opptomist to the fullest and still believe that their are pockets out there.[/quote]

I can not fully understadn what you were saying....Did they really think they saw them or see them? Did you think they did...

WHat area in NH? More specific..I may be able to giv eyou some good info! Kev

[PadraigC]

They have seen them, One guy claims to have seen one as early as two years ago from talking to him while out in the woods. Clear as day he said in the middle of a path. I was specific enough to wip out me audbon guide and take some plates cover the nameds between that and the northern water snake and timber, he picked timber! I believe him, I want to. However, were talking about the western Monadnock region an area extensively hiked and exstensively developed in areas for agriculture. This area I think would of been prime for Wildlife's genocide on timbers. However, rock faces exsist I think 100% possible for a population. The towns of Jaffery and Troy are specifically where this conversation took place while fishing, the next day I was back with a hook of a different sort. Ive looked at topozone's map of the area there is some nice elevation of larger hills I now to be rocky and I think suitable. Elevation is what gets me Is there a height considered prime?

[EvilMorphgod]

We have some info for that area.....little Monadnock Mnt?

THere is something in that area...As far as Monadnock.....it seems there is too much traffic on that area...they were there but I don't think they are still there....did you get an exact location from this guy? He said on Monadnock? Maybe it is a lone animal..just wandering!!

So sad...

There were bounties in the 70's in many northern states... hard to imagine how effective these incentives were!!!

We're such smucks!!

Kev

[Kitt]

Mount Monadnock is the second most heavily climbed mountain in the world, second only to Mt. Fuji. If there are any rattlers there, they must not have very much privacy. :(

[PadraigC]

actually not directly on Mt Monadnock. The location was off more towards a smaller elevation called Gap Mointain. The exacts Im going to put on a map at one point when i can revisit this site and hope that next time im down at the same stream I run into this guy.............

[EvilMorphgod]

Really?

Gap is on our hit list!!!!!

I have heard things...it looks good on a map..how did it look in person?

Small world!!

He really thought he saw them there..he is a hunter of fisherman...how did he describe them? Time of year? Did he actually see a rattle...there are some important questions you must ask people so you don't go on wild goose chases!!

Any info is good info.... it is CRTITICAL to time you looking at a certain time of the year...plus you need to look for key areas to make a hibernaculum!!!

Believe me I kNOW!!!!
Kev

[PadraigC]

well hes an old timer for sure, with that rustic NH woodsmen deal he hunts and fishes(how i got talking). The way he described it to me, is he came across one animal on a trail. I then showed him some pictures that had some C.Ruber ssp pics in the mix to see if I could throw him off. It had clarified things when I was over in Peterborough with a lady who had sworn she had seen timbers and then pointed to the pic of the northern watersnake.

Each time he piced out a timber. But what he sayed next was odd because he really couldn't describe it but, he looked at a pic of a timber and goes no theyre darker then thism, really dark around the back half.

About Gap in person. Its got some elevation Would I be confident about Timbers on the main body of the mountain. No, not really because its a heavily hiked site like its big brother. The outlying hills though I think are wre its at and thats were Ive been pointed to. I was their spring last year and some spots definetly provide some security. Have i seen a hiberxalum in person no, Ive seen pics from mostly sites in NY but, I would gather once again spots with some steep slopes that could provide some nice housing.(with some advice from the zen master i think I can get abetter understanding of what i should look for first hand)

Im going to hit this spot hard I think late May early June the late June agian.......I finally got a digital camera so I should be able to provide some rconsicance :smt023


Kev, Does Wildlife even have any shred of a plan intact for preservation if so whos working on it? I have some Herp CI's in other parts of that area so, your hit list and mine might look a little similar, I wonder?

[EvilMorphgod]

Fish and Wildlife have the don't bother the last population thing and maybe they will hold on...they keep quiet and just wait...So NO, they do not have a plan. They have no other populations to even consider, that is what i need to change. The people in charge are basically non snake people besides a single Colonel, he likes them and wants to protect them! I have a permit to keep the ones I have from the state..I am their guy to keep venomous.

The guy sounds to make some sense when he says they get darker towards the back of the body....that sounds real good in fact...found near a trail? Any idea the exact area? Time of year(month?)

You need to go looking before mothers day for the den area.... they come out and the larger animals may go into the woods quick.... if you go too late you'll miss them and never see a thing!

You need to key in on the DEN!!!

Open basking spots on top....a cliff or bluff below or near it...then below that a rock slide that is exposed to sun.. not an area with heavy forest cover..they need open spots to warm up. Look for porcupine occupation too. ....that is a good sign for sure..

The best exposure is a southwestern!! Then southern or western and finally Eastish..
By mothers day many of the animals have already migrated from the den..many go north of the den.

How big was the animal he saw? Larger animals will move quite a ways...so time of year is important! Smaller animals will stay closer to the den...gravid females will stay real close and adult breeding males will often migrate several miles and loop back to the den...

I will go look at gap mountain on a topo....do you know the spot where he saw it? I can make some sense of it....

Let me know!!!! Kev

[PadraigC]

Just took a look at topozone myself I got on Gap Mtn Road near Cubleigh hill I hit a body of water that I can clearly see now then hit it north from there. The specific trail he saw it on????????? I know my route i basically went up and over ablou my estimate fuzzy memory here ablout 1.5 miles away from that lake,pond I hit a real nice revine and after about another 45 i hit some real nice rockyy drop offs. As to the size of the animal I asked him clearly not to embelish in the least he compared it to a fat water snake we saw that day around my estimate 4.5 ft and he said smaller I suggested 3ft he concured.


Should I be concerned about NH wildlife harassing me if Im up in that area and happen to come across one of those dreaded SUv's?


I really like the networking going on here I wish some more people would step up and take a crack.

[EvilMorphgod]

No worries about Fish and WIldlife..they don't care and are overworked....

I was looking on the topo zone....... does it have much for talus slides???

It looked decent but what you really want is to see sharp drop offs....the lines close together...lots of ledge...deep cracks in the rock...... is the are built up?

So he was a fisherman walking...meaning he was near a body of water?

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4745737&e=734112&s=50&size=l&datum= nad83&layer=DRG25

What direction from the top of Gap mountain?

Kev

[PadraigC]

if you look at the cheap map on topozone and type in troy and go off to the west to to Gap around the marking 0f 540 is real close ridges and that is what i think I mean in my last post about walking another 45 min.

To clarify he wasn't near the body of water I started my search out from there. He was further in, on a trail when he just stumbled across a Timber, from shooting the breeze with him. Ive talked to 20+ people about TImbers in NH and by now I consider myself a human lie detector , but as he has stated he was around when they "were everywhere" so hes the most believable source Ive had so far.


Ive also just thought of a place in Gilmanton Iron Works,NH I had a flashback to a a real sharp face that took me atleast 2 hrs to get into. I havent been there in over 3 years Ill add it to the short list.


To Specify right around this vicinity i found to be interesting or the spot where i turned around and headed back

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4744609&e=734163&s=50&size=l&datum= nad83&layer=DRG25

[EvilMorphgod]

As an example I show you this!


http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4744490&e=725864&s=50&size=l&datum= nad83&layer=DRG25

See the steep ledge...they love stuff like this... just an example nothing more!!!


It takes so much time and effort trying to find anything probable....

Grrr.... Kev

[PadraigC]

that does look nice......... I have a nice idea of what to look for on topozone now. If my memory compass is right that should be smack dap not disturbed on the border or troy and swanzey? if they border in that direction.

[RhacBreeder]

captainmorgan, I am also in manchester...My email is RhacBreeder@yahoo.com. Shoot me an email, I have no one to herp with this summer and just moved here.

[EvilMorphgod]

We can dance around the woods to some hip hop!!!

Maybe I'll get lucky and hip hop OFF A CLIFF!!!

Manchester used to be nice..before the airport I hear!!

There may still be some hognose there too!

Kev

[PadraigC]

iv ealways wanted to find some eastern hogs in new england put the type of places to look are very broad descriptions coming out of guides....loose sandy soil.....thats all I ever read. How are they really found and Kev do you have an example of a place(region) just for reference

[RhacBreeder]

Yeah there probably wont be any hipping or hopping where ever I am. I don't think I'll find any hognose here either, unless it's in a deli. But I think they limit their products to pork, bacon, sausage, salami and these types of things. Although I did see a jar of pickled hogs feet at Stop and Shop. :smt005

[EvilMorphgod]

Behind the vocational school they are there.....

Alvern!! That is the name..not Manchester though....near that!! kev

[ItsJustJosh]

i SWEAR i saw a solid black eastern hog in Maine. It puffed out its neck and the whole bit. Under a foot long, but i was like 4 years old, and have never seen anything other than garters there since, so i have to assume it was not a hog. would be cool if it was though

[TeaBag]

Behind the vocational school they are there.....

Alvern!! That is the name..not Manchester though....near that!! kev

Alvirne High is in Hudson and that tract of land goes all the way to the airport with only a couple road crossings. There were box turtles there 10 years ago too but they're probably gone by now.

[EvilMorphgod]

Teabaggeg...how did you know that there were box turts back there?

Kev

[PadraigC]

kev any ideas of when i should hit up little monadnock? I know you said befor mothers day and thats coming up. I know Im gonna look for sheds for sure but would you like some pics of the area for yourself?

[Keith]

new poster, but I have been following your forum on timbers for the last few months. I intend on doing some searching (just for photos and video) this spring, and I have some good ideas in carroll county. For you guys needing a good topo map resource, you will LOVE this program. This is what I use: NASA Worldwind . Do a google search on it to find the latest download. It requires a pretty fast computer with a 3d card. It builds a 3d map of the area, and you can overlay the 3d (of say a mountain) with satellite, topo, roads, weather- You can fly around the area in real time, change views, perspective. The program is amazing, and its free. It is a 250 megabyte download however.

keith G
www.wolfeboro.com

[Keith]

I asked my father the last time he saw a timber, he said it was around 1980-81 In canterbury NH. He worked for the railroad and they were laying track, and found a baby. he said it was very aggressive, and it was definately a rattler. He said it was on a section of track near a large sand pit somewhere in that area.

[TeaBag]

Teabaggeg...how did you know that there were box turts back there?

Kev

when i worked at the pet store in the early '90's somebody brought in a little baby one that they caught there. i had heard rumors for awhile but that pretty much confirmed it. also, musquash swamp on the other end of hudson supposedly had a population of box turtles, however, they have now been replaced by a population of young professional humans with big houses and bratty kids.

i've tromped around both those areas A LOT and never found anything worth while. you went with me one day to musquash kev, remember? the ill-fated fishing expedition?